From: mckitterick	Date: April 11th, 2007 06:31 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Oh, I don't think spaceships, robots and aliens are "Sci-Fi," I think they're tropes we can use in SF and Sci-Fi. I usually define Sci-Fi (or "scifi" or "skiffy") as media-related SF, though I know lots just it as a derogatory term.

	From: frankwu	Date: April 11th, 2007 07:11 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Really? Hmmm... I agree that spaceships/robots/aliens are used in both Sci-Fi and Science Fiction, but I think they're more prominent/important-to-the-plot in Sci-Fi.
I'd never, in all these years, heard the media/non-media distinction, but that's interesting, too. Of course, most media Sci-Fi/Science Fiction has spaceships/robots and/or aliens in it.

	From: cmdrsuzdal	Date: April 11th, 2007 07:19 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I posted over there in greater detail, but for me "sci-fi" is basically a subset of "sf" that involves rayguns, robots and so on.

	From: mckitterick	Date: April 11th, 2007 08:27 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Y'know, I think that if the director/writer/whomever uses spaceships, robots, or aliens as props only, that makes is Sci-Fi; if those are integral to the plot, story, or so forth, it's SF. That is, if you yank all those things from Star Wars and replace the starships with sailing vessels, the robots with gnomes, Darth Vader's power-suit with Magical Powers of Darkness, and so forth, you have the same story, therefore it's Sci-Fi vs. SF.

Hm!

	From: mapescapacity	Date: April 11th, 2007 07:15 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Can't we just accept that it is short for Science Fiction, give me a break. If you think that it is derogatory to use Sci-Fi or SF you got problems. Hate to be so frank about this. I am not very articulate.

	From: cmdrsuzdal	Date: April 11th, 2007 07:32 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Probably because there are plenty of people, artists, writers and others working in the genre who have felt the need to explain that their art/interest is more than light pop entertainment for juveniles (although it may include that just fine) ... SF has gained a certain amount of credibility over the years but the condescending attitude can be annoying at least and at most damaging, say if you're trying to get a grade or a grant or a review, etc.

In general I don't care and haven't encountered it much, but I have experienced this from a fiction teacher in college and can't imagine how frustrating it might be if I were a real writer.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: April 11th, 2007 08:54 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Yes, I would definitly write out Science Fiction if I happen to be writing a paper and would only use SF or Sci-Fi in light conversation.

	From: mapescapacity	Date: April 11th, 2007 08:55 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Yes, I would definitly write out Science Fiction if I happen to be writing a paper and would only use SF or Sci-Fi in light conversation.

	From: bridget_coila	Date: April 11th, 2007 08:59 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	gonna weigh in with Mapes here...

I AM an actual writer, (also daughter of an English teacher, scientist and with a couple years of college linguistics) and I don't find the labels of "SF", "Sci-fi" or "Science Fiction" to inherently be much different from each other in the world outside of fandom/conventions/etc.

If a teacher or reviewer is going to be condescending toward your story, it's not because you called it "Sci-fi" instead of "SF"...it's going to be because you wrote a story that included robots or spaceships or rayguns or whatever...

People outside the genre don't care about the terms. All those things are pretty much the same to them. In fact, the "Sci-fi" actually is probably the best one for promotion with the purpose of getting new readers: "If you liked Star Wars/The Matrix/Sci-fi, then you'll like my book." Thinking about it just from a sheer numbers perspective there are many more people who will say they like "Sci-fi" but have no clue what "SF" is... Plus, linguistically, "sci-fi" is a logical acronym. It is catchy, easy to say and linguistically conforms to the shortened version of "science fiction."
(example of what I mean: We say NASA, not "Nas-eh", despite the fact that the A in Administration is not pronounced "uh" but more akin to "eh" - we pronounce it as an "A" following an "S")

WITHIN the genre, however, I've found a lot of resistance to using one term vs another. Personally, I find this to be obnoxious and cliqueish. I've actually heard people say "If you use 'sci-fi' then you aren't a REAL science-fiction fan."
Which is just plain wrong despite being annoying.
Hello... the term was coined by Forrest Ackerman!

For a genre that is supposed to be the provence of outcasts, weirdos and freaks, I find the exclusionary snobbiness to be especially disturbing.

For myself - when I'm talking or in formal writing, I usually use Sci-fi or Science Fiction. In casual blogging, I often just shorten to "SF."

B

	From: cmdrsuzdal	Date: April 11th, 2007 09:41 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: gonna weigh in with Mapes here...

Well sure, I didn't mean to imply that my teacher would have been more predisposed to respecting "sf" over "sci-fi", but rather that I am not surprised that professionals in the field bristle at the type of attitude that he displayed and associate it with the historical dismissive use of the term "sci-fi".

So while I would probably just laugh if a fellow fan brought me to task for saying using "sci-fi" I wouldn't go up to Ursula K. Le Guin at a convention and say "you're my favorite sci-fi writer!" either ;)

	From: haikujaguar	Date: April 11th, 2007 08:34 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Bring on the aliens!

	From: frankwu	Date: April 11th, 2007 11:44 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Yeah! The more chitinous and multi-legged, the better!

	From: mike_van_pelt	Date: April 11th, 2007 11:03 pm (UTC)		(Link)

The first I heard "Use of the term 'Sci-Fi' considered harmful" was in a book review in Analog by Lester del Rey, back in the 70s, I think.

His analogy was that you used to have "High Fidelity sound systems", lovingly built by people who knew electronics and audio, for people who could appreciate the good stuff.

Then, you had the stuff sold at K-Mart, "Hi-Fi" sets, with maybe six transistors and a 4" speaker, that sounded like garbage, for people who didn't know or care about the difference.

Me, I don't make a big deal out of it. If I intend to use "Sci-Fi" as a slur for the bad stuff, I pronounce it "skiffy".

I don't think it has anything, necessarily, to do with whether it has ray guns or rocket ships or robots or aliens in it, nor whether it's media related. Poul Anderson wrote a lot of stories with aliens (Adzel and Chee-Lan are old, dear friends) which are not, by any stretch, "skiffy". I think by any reasonable distinction, "GATACA" is Science Fiction, not skiffy. OK, no robots or aliens, but space ships were in the background.

	From: seventorches	Date: April 11th, 2007 11:17 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	It's a Sci-Fi thing, you wouldn't understand

I use all those interchangeably (sci-fi and SF are short for Science Fiction, which to me encompasses all spec-fic including elfy-welfy fantasies). I am a lifelong FAN, dammit. I have every right to refer to my milieu however I please. Got a problem with rockets and rayguns? Don't pretend to be writing science fiction.

	From: frankwu	Date: April 11th, 2007 11:49 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: It's a Sci-Fi thing, you wouldn't understand

I think I play a little mental game with myself.
On one hand, I think of a quote from Lester Bangs in "Almost Famous" who talks about people who try to impart RESPECTABILITY on rock n roll, a medium which is righteously and gloriously dumb.
Now, I'm not about to say that science fiction as a whole is righteously and gloriously dumb (leaving aside things like "The Giant Vegetable Rebellion" episode of "Lost in Space"). But, if I approach an idea with the attitude that "this is just a dumb little story about something wacky," that loosens up my brain, and then I can impart on the project my own intellectual baggage (full of Shakespeare, biotechnology know-how, etc.).

Thus, in a way, I can have my cake and eat it, too.

I can write something which is, on one level, really about a giant space chicken, but also about more important themes like self-delusion, pride, the Peter Principle, etc. So it can be both skiffy and science fiction at the same time. At least that's the goal.

	From: kellymccullough	Date: April 14th, 2007 03:46 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Thanks for the discussion. I posted the following response over at the Wyrdsmiths Blog and thought I'd post it here and with Lucy as well, since that's how I got involved:

This one fascinates me. I personally use sci-fi, SF, science fiction, and speculative fiction pretty interchangeably, and I've never understood the conniptions some folks have about the term sci-fi. This is despite the facts that I'm a third generation fan, that I've been going to conventions for 25 years, and that I write and publish in the field.

I really don't get it. Yes, some people use the term to denigrate the field. However, for those who think science fiction is a waste of time, it's not about terminology it's about content. They're going to dump on science fiction no matter what you call it. In my experience they also use the term science fiction to denigrate the field. If you talk to them about SF, they assume you mean San Francisco until you explain it to them, then they dump on SF. Likewise speculative fiction.

This whole debate seems to me to be a sterling way to let the people who hate the field define the way you should talk about it, and to turn the term sci-fi into something that people who are on the pro science fiction side of the fence use to bash each other over the head with. In short: getting worked up over sci-fi seems terribly counterproductive.

	From: sr_smith	Date: April 19th, 2007 04:32 am (UTC)		(Link)

I've always leaned towards SciFi, mostly because it's too much trouble to spell or say 'Science Fiction', and it's too ambiguous to just say SF (you could be writing San-Francisco travelogues)

I wonder about the robots, spaceships and aliens though, is William Gibson still SciFi then when he has (at least lately) none of these in his stories?

Honestly, I'm interested in writing and reading stories that interest me, and those will usually involve characters and environments that don't exist outside the SciFi space. Whatever people want to call it, as long as they don't call it 'crap', that's fine with me.